1 00:00:09,709 --> 00:00:06,010 [Music] 2 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:09,719 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 3 00:00:14,990 --> 00:00:11,490 with neuroscientist and near-death 4 00:00:17,510 --> 00:00:15,000 experiencer even Alexander one thing 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:17,520 that we will have to let go of is this 6 00:00:23,529 --> 00:00:20,490 kind of addiction to simplistic 7 00:00:26,540 --> 00:00:23,539 primitive reductive materialism 8 00:00:30,410 --> 00:00:26,550 because there's there's really no way 9 00:00:33,530 --> 00:00:30,420 that I can see a reductive materialist 10 00:00:36,799 --> 00:00:33,540 model coming remotely in the right 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:36,809 ballpark to explain what we really know 12 00:00:43,130 --> 00:00:39,570 about consciousness now and you know 13 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:43,140 coming from a neurosurgeon who before my 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:45,510 coma I thought I was quite certain how 15 00:00:50,810 --> 00:00:47,610 the brain and the mind interacted and it 16 00:00:52,430 --> 00:00:50,820 was very clear in that realm that the 17 00:00:54,439 --> 00:00:52,440 brain gives you consciousness and 18 00:00:57,139 --> 00:00:54,449 everything else and when the brain dies 19 00:01:00,500 --> 00:00:57,149 there goes consciousness soul mind it's 20 00:01:02,660 --> 00:01:00,510 all gone and it was clear now having 21 00:01:04,789 --> 00:01:02,670 been through my coma I can tell you that 22 00:01:07,690 --> 00:01:04,799 that's exactly wrong and that in fact 23 00:01:10,789 --> 00:01:07,700 the mind and consciousness are 24 00:01:13,370 --> 00:01:10,799 independent of the brain stay with us 25 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:13,380 for skeptic Oh 26 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:24,730 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 27 00:01:28,690 --> 00:01:26,210 controversial science with leading 28 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:28,700 researchers thinkers and their critics 29 00:01:33,460 --> 00:01:31,130 I'm your host Alex Karras and on today's 30 00:01:36,420 --> 00:01:33,470 episode we have an interview with dr. 31 00:01:38,469 --> 00:01:36,430 eben Alexander a very highly respected 32 00:01:41,580 --> 00:01:38,479 neurosurgeon neuroscientist 33 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:41,590 who also happens to be an NDE 34 00:01:46,990 --> 00:01:44,510 experiencer it's a fascinating interview 35 00:01:49,810 --> 00:01:47,000 and a topic that was suggested by you 36 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:49,820 the skeptical listeners and I thank you 37 00:01:56,139 --> 00:01:51,530 for that let's get right to the 38 00:01:59,590 --> 00:01:56,149 interview today we welcome dr. even 39 00:02:01,810 --> 00:01:59,600 Alexander - skeptic Oh dr. Alexander has 40 00:02:04,210 --> 00:02:01,820 been an academic neurosurgeon for more 41 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:04,220 than 25 years including 15 years at 42 00:02:10,630 --> 00:02:07,250 Harvard Medical School in Boston and in 43 00:02:12,820 --> 00:02:10,640 November of 2008 he had a near-death 44 00:02:15,580 --> 00:02:12,830 experience that changed his life and 45 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:15,590 caused him to rethink everything he 46 00:02:20,949 --> 00:02:17,570 thought he knew about the human brain 47 00:02:23,350 --> 00:02:20,959 and consciousness dr. Alexander welcome 48 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:23,360 - skeptic oh thank you it's good to be 49 00:02:29,229 --> 00:02:26,690 here well your story is really quite 50 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:29,239 amazing and for those who haven't heard 51 00:02:33,460 --> 00:02:31,970 of it and don't unaware of what you went 52 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:33,470 through do you want to tell us a little 53 00:02:38,170 --> 00:02:34,850 bit about your experience 54 00:02:41,890 --> 00:02:38,180 yes um it it really struck out of the 55 00:02:44,140 --> 00:02:41,900 blue I had been quite healthy up until 56 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:44,150 that time in fact I was in the 57 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:45,769 reasonably good shape because my older 58 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:48,410 son had been putting me through a big 59 00:02:55,449 --> 00:02:52,730 workout anticipating a climb of a 20,000 60 00:02:59,380 --> 00:02:55,459 foot volcano in South America luckily I 61 00:03:01,350 --> 00:02:59,390 was in pretty good shape and about 4:30 62 00:03:05,410 --> 00:03:01,360 in the morning um 63 00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:05,420 November 10th 2008 I got out of bed I 64 00:03:09,190 --> 00:03:07,760 was getting ready to go up to work I was 65 00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:09,200 working in Charlottesville at the time 66 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:13,910 and I had severe sudden back pain much 67 00:03:21,729 --> 00:03:18,160 worse than I had ever experienced and 68 00:03:23,470 --> 00:03:21,739 literally within 10 or 15 minutes it it 69 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:23,480 got me to a point where I could not even 70 00:03:26,990 --> 00:03:26,330 take a step I was really in tremendous 71 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:27,000 agony 72 00:03:33,350 --> 00:03:29,810 my wife Holly was rubbing my back and 73 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:33,360 then my older son I mean my younger son 74 00:03:39,130 --> 00:03:36,450 bond came in and so I was in La distress 75 00:03:41,810 --> 00:03:39,140 and he started rubbing my temples and I 76 00:03:43,580 --> 00:03:41,820 realized when he did that I had a severe 77 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:43,590 headache it was like he took a railroad 78 00:03:47,570 --> 00:03:46,050 spike and put it through my head but I 79 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:47,580 was already really going down very 80 00:03:54,650 --> 00:03:50,490 quickly I didn't know it at the time 81 00:03:57,500 --> 00:03:54,660 found out much later that I had acute 82 00:04:02,300 --> 00:03:57,510 bacterial meningitis and it was with a 83 00:04:05,870 --> 00:04:02,310 very unusual bacterium one that the 84 00:04:07,699 --> 00:04:05,880 incidence of e.coli a spontaneous e.coli 85 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:07,709 meningitis in adults in the US is about 86 00:04:12,530 --> 00:04:09,690 one in ten million per year so it's 87 00:04:15,770 --> 00:04:12,540 really rare we never found out where it 88 00:04:18,590 --> 00:04:15,780 came from but at any rate it within 89 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:18,600 about two two-and-a-half hours 90 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:23,490 drove me deep down and in fact my last 91 00:04:28,370 --> 00:04:25,470 words really were to my wife 92 00:04:33,110 --> 00:04:28,380 don't call 9-1-1 trust me I'm a doctor 93 00:04:34,610 --> 00:04:33,120 and luckily Shield that and she did that 94 00:04:36,770 --> 00:04:34,620 because she saw me having a grand mal 95 00:04:38,870 --> 00:04:36,780 seizure on the bed of course I don't 96 00:04:40,190 --> 00:04:38,880 remember that and I really don't 97 00:04:46,550 --> 00:04:40,200 remember anything that happened for the 98 00:04:48,770 --> 00:04:46,560 next week because I was gone and I was 99 00:04:51,260 --> 00:04:48,780 very sick during that time as I as I 100 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:51,270 heard later in fact I was so sick that 101 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:54,330 my I was on a ventilator the whole week 102 00:05:00,320 --> 00:04:57,690 and in fact they did several lumbar 103 00:05:02,090 --> 00:05:00,330 punctures trying to guide therapy I was 104 00:05:06,050 --> 00:05:02,100 on triple antibiotics 105 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:06,060 very early on due to a very good medical 106 00:05:12,110 --> 00:05:09,690 team but they did a lumbar puncture 107 00:05:14,420 --> 00:05:12,120 about the second third day into this and 108 00:05:18,409 --> 00:05:14,430 my cerebral spinal fluid glucose which 109 00:05:20,719 --> 00:05:18,419 is normally around sixty to eighty and 110 00:05:22,820 --> 00:05:20,729 then a bad case of meningitis might drop 111 00:05:25,159 --> 00:05:22,830 down to about twenty well my glucose 112 00:05:28,370 --> 00:05:25,169 went down to one so I was the really 113 00:05:31,580 --> 00:05:28,380 sick so at this point nothing should be 114 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:31,590 going on in your brain and yet something 115 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:33,870 was happening in your conscious 116 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:36,930 awareness yeah I'd say that's correct 117 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:40,240 it's I mean the to me and 118 00:05:44,820 --> 00:05:43,210 I spent more than you know the last 119 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:44,830 three years I've spent a lot of time 120 00:05:49,770 --> 00:05:47,380 trying to explain this and that 121 00:05:50,999 --> 00:05:49,780 explanation initially all I was doing 122 00:05:55,830 --> 00:05:51,009 was trying to explain it nor 123 00:05:57,180 --> 00:05:55,840 scientifically and I mean meningitis is 124 00:05:58,950 --> 00:05:57,190 very helpful because it's probably 125 00:06:02,400 --> 00:05:58,960 better than anything else it really 126 00:06:05,189 --> 00:06:02,410 diffusely wiping out the neocortex but 127 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:05,199 one can always argue that there's a some 128 00:06:10,860 --> 00:06:08,310 idling function at a deep level that 129 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:10,870 might still survive and in fact one of 130 00:06:16,260 --> 00:06:12,849 the hypotheses that I entertained about 131 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:16,270 all this was because the experience that 132 00:06:22,850 --> 00:06:19,240 I'll describe to you seemed very hyper 133 00:06:26,219 --> 00:06:22,860 real extremely crisp and vivid much more 134 00:06:27,870 --> 00:06:26,229 real and interactive than sitting here 135 00:06:31,290 --> 00:06:27,880 and talking with you right now I mean it 136 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:31,300 was extraordinary and that is something 137 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:33,849 that is often described in near-death 138 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:36,130 experiences and of course one of my 139 00:06:42,469 --> 00:06:39,280 early hypotheses was well maybe there 140 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:42,479 was some differential effect against 141 00:06:47,610 --> 00:06:45,610 inhibitory neuron networks that allowed 142 00:06:51,089 --> 00:06:47,620 over expression of excitatory neural 143 00:06:54,810 --> 00:06:51,099 networks and gave this illusion of kind 144 00:06:57,540 --> 00:06:54,820 of a hyper real situation and I can tell 145 00:07:01,770 --> 00:06:57,550 you from having lived through it that it 146 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:01,780 was so powerful and so beyond that kind 147 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:03,250 of explanation that I wasn't very 148 00:07:09,749 --> 00:07:06,969 hopeful that that would work out in the 149 00:07:13,529 --> 00:07:09,759 end but I figured I needed to give it a 150 00:07:15,330 --> 00:07:13,539 chance and look at the micro anatomy in 151 00:07:17,309 --> 00:07:15,340 the cortex and the different connections 152 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:17,319 with the thalamus and basal ganglia see 153 00:07:23,790 --> 00:07:21,430 if I could come up with some way um that 154 00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:23,800 one might have an illusion of hyper 155 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:26,289 reality but I can tell you because of 156 00:07:31,140 --> 00:07:29,020 the kind of content of the experience 157 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:31,150 and kind of the powerful overwhelming 158 00:07:36,839 --> 00:07:33,550 nature of it and the fact that it was so 159 00:07:39,719 --> 00:07:36,849 complex I think much of what I 160 00:07:41,309 --> 00:07:39,729 remembered from that experience I don't 161 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:41,319 think my brain in mind could possibly 162 00:07:47,189 --> 00:07:45,130 manage even now I mean the the kind of 163 00:07:49,589 --> 00:07:47,199 mental function that occurs when you're 164 00:07:51,570 --> 00:07:49,599 in that hyper real state the the way 165 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:51,580 that information comes in from spiritual 166 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:53,330 beings 167 00:07:58,030 --> 00:07:55,250 kind of the interaction with them is so 168 00:08:00,280 --> 00:07:58,040 intense and extraordinary it's it's 169 00:08:03,310 --> 00:08:00,290 really inexplicable in in kind of 170 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:03,320 earthly terms but it it would basically 171 00:08:09,550 --> 00:08:07,730 outrun any of those kind of theories but 172 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:09,560 that was something I was looking for and 173 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:12,410 in fact I never found a kind of an 174 00:08:17,740 --> 00:08:15,010 anatomic distribution that would support 175 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:17,750 kind of that over activity of excitatory 176 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:21,530 pathways okay so great thanks for doing 177 00:08:24,820 --> 00:08:22,970 that I think we've jumped a little bit 178 00:08:25,990 --> 00:08:24,830 ahead of the story for for those who 179 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:26,000 don't know tell us a little bit about 180 00:08:33,089 --> 00:08:29,360 your NDE okay well I think you know you 181 00:08:37,450 --> 00:08:33,099 were asking what is it like when when 182 00:08:40,810 --> 00:08:37,460 one is has their cortex shut down like 183 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:40,820 that and and in fact for one thing I was 184 00:08:44,740 --> 00:08:42,650 surprised I remembered anything because 185 00:08:46,540 --> 00:08:44,750 as a neurosurgeon having had many 186 00:08:51,370 --> 00:08:46,550 patients who were in coma for various 187 00:08:52,990 --> 00:08:51,380 reasons and had a lot of them recover my 188 00:08:54,700 --> 00:08:53,000 understanding was it in general you 189 00:09:00,460 --> 00:08:54,710 don't really remember anything even when 190 00:09:02,470 --> 00:09:00,470 the patient's seemed to be interacting I 191 00:09:04,780 --> 00:09:02,480 knew that usually if they've been sick 192 00:09:06,340 --> 00:09:04,790 for instance with a meningitis that that 193 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:06,350 they really wouldn't remember much of it 194 00:09:09,340 --> 00:09:08,210 occasionally there were exceptions to 195 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:09,350 that you'd have patients who would 196 00:09:15,579 --> 00:09:12,530 remember very remarkable things from 197 00:09:17,290 --> 00:09:15,589 deep inside but you know before I had 198 00:09:19,030 --> 00:09:17,300 always kind of explained that away with 199 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:19,040 the standard answers though this is what 200 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:22,610 the brain does when it's very sick what 201 00:09:29,770 --> 00:09:26,510 I do remember from deep inside coma for 202 00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:29,780 one thing my first awareness was of not 203 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:32,630 I had no memory whatsoever of my life I 204 00:09:38,380 --> 00:09:36,290 had no language no words all of my 205 00:09:41,079 --> 00:09:38,390 experience in life knowledge of humans 206 00:09:45,010 --> 00:09:41,089 you know earth the universe all that was 207 00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:45,020 gone and the only thing I had was this 208 00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:48,830 very kind of crude existence and I call 209 00:09:54,010 --> 00:09:50,870 it in my book I call it the earth worms 210 00:09:57,460 --> 00:09:54,020 eye view because it really was just a 211 00:10:00,820 --> 00:09:57,470 very crude kind of underground of I have 212 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:00,830 a vivid memory of dark roots above me 213 00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:02,860 and 214 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:04,510 it was there was kind of a monotonous 215 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:08,770 pounding dull sound in the background 216 00:10:15,810 --> 00:10:13,180 pounding away eternally and it was just 217 00:10:18,090 --> 00:10:15,820 murky and gross every now and then I you 218 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:18,100 know a face animal or something would 219 00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:19,840 kind of boil up out of the muck and 220 00:10:23,790 --> 00:10:22,240 there might be some chant or roar or 221 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:23,800 something and then they'd disappear 222 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:27,610 again and it sounds very foreboding to 223 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:29,830 talk about it right now but in fact 224 00:10:35,820 --> 00:10:32,530 since I knew nothing no other existence 225 00:10:38,430 --> 00:10:35,830 I don't remember being particularly 226 00:10:41,940 --> 00:10:38,440 alarmed when I was in that setting and 227 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:41,950 and I I think that that was the best 228 00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:43,930 kind of consciousness that my brain 229 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:47,440 could muster when it was soaking in pus 230 00:10:52,890 --> 00:10:51,010 and it turns out that that seemed to 231 00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:52,900 last for a very long time I mean given 232 00:10:58,050 --> 00:10:55,360 that it was my first awareness of 233 00:10:59,850 --> 00:10:58,060 anything it actually seemed to be years 234 00:11:02,340 --> 00:10:59,860 or eternity I don't know it seemed like 235 00:11:05,850 --> 00:11:02,350 a very very long time and then there was 236 00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:05,860 a spinning melody this bright melody 237 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:07,750 that just started spinning in front of 238 00:11:14,190 --> 00:11:10,330 me beautiful beautiful melody compared 239 00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:14,200 to that dull pounding sound that I had 240 00:11:20,010 --> 00:11:17,440 heard for eons and it spun and as it 241 00:11:22,410 --> 00:11:20,020 spun around it cleared everything away 242 00:11:25,410 --> 00:11:22,420 and this was the part that was so 243 00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:25,420 shocking and so hard to explain it was 244 00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:29,200 it the blinders came off and the reality 245 00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:33,040 there was was much more crisp real and 246 00:11:39,060 --> 00:11:36,340 interactive and fresh than any reality 247 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:39,070 I've ever known in this in this earthly 248 00:11:43,350 --> 00:11:41,770 existence and that part is very shocking 249 00:11:45,540 --> 00:11:43,360 and hard to explain when you go through 250 00:11:48,290 --> 00:11:45,550 it and yet what I've found since then is 251 00:11:51,150 --> 00:11:48,300 a lot of people who have had NDEs 252 00:11:53,850 --> 00:11:51,160 discussed the same kind of hyper reality 253 00:11:57,930 --> 00:11:53,860 but it's very shocking to see it and for 254 00:12:01,890 --> 00:11:57,940 me it was I was a speck on a butterfly 255 00:12:04,290 --> 00:12:01,900 wing I had no no body awareness at all 256 00:12:07,170 --> 00:12:04,300 in fact I had no body awareness through 257 00:12:09,150 --> 00:12:07,180 this entire kind of deep coma experience 258 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:09,160 and I was a speck on a beautiful 259 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:11,910 butterfly wing millions of other 260 00:12:15,890 --> 00:12:14,890 butterflies around us we were flying 261 00:12:20,690 --> 00:12:15,900 through 262 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:20,700 trees and they were all kind of coming 263 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:23,130 out as we flew through them and beside 264 00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:25,200 me on the butterfly wing was a beautiful 265 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:29,510 girl and I remember her face to this day 266 00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:32,370 absolutely a beautiful girl blue eyes 267 00:12:36,620 --> 00:12:35,220 and she was dressed in what when I was 268 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:36,630 trying to write all this up in the 269 00:12:40,910 --> 00:12:39,450 months after I came back I described as 270 00:12:44,050 --> 00:12:40,920 kind of a peasant garb but I can 271 00:12:47,060 --> 00:12:44,060 remember the colors very well kind of a 272 00:12:49,550 --> 00:12:47,070 peach orange and a powder blue just 273 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:49,560 really beautiful she never said a word 274 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:52,770 to me and she was looking at me and her 275 00:12:58,760 --> 00:12:54,810 thoughts would just come into my 276 00:13:01,070 --> 00:12:58,770 awareness and her thoughts things like 277 00:13:04,070 --> 00:13:01,080 you are loved your cherished forever 278 00:13:06,079 --> 00:13:04,080 there is nothing you can do wrong you 279 00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:06,089 have nothing to worry about you will be 280 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:10,350 taken care of and it was so soothing and 281 00:13:16,010 --> 00:13:13,410 so beautiful and of course as I said my 282 00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:16,020 language wasn't really working in so 283 00:13:22,070 --> 00:13:18,600 those particular words are words I had 284 00:13:26,390 --> 00:13:22,080 to put on it when I came back out but a 285 00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:26,400 lot of this flowed perfectly when I came 286 00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:29,040 back out in fact I didn't read anything 287 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:30,720 about near-death experiences or about 288 00:13:36,140 --> 00:13:33,810 physics or cosmology because of the 289 00:13:39,140 --> 00:13:36,150 advice my older son Evan the fourth who 290 00:13:41,470 --> 00:13:39,150 was majoring in neuroscience at 291 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:41,480 University of Delaware and he advised me 292 00:13:45,199 --> 00:13:43,890 you know three days after I left the 293 00:13:47,690 --> 00:13:45,209 hospital when he came home for 294 00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:47,700 Thanksgiving back in 2008 he said well 295 00:13:51,769 --> 00:13:49,200 if you want to write this up as a useful 296 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:51,779 report don't read anything just write 297 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:53,370 everything down you can remember and I 298 00:13:57,410 --> 00:13:56,130 spent the next two months typing 299 00:13:59,000 --> 00:13:57,420 everything I could remember in the 300 00:14:02,050 --> 00:13:59,010 computer and it came out to about a 301 00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:02,060 hundred pages of memories from this deep 302 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:06,870 experience within the coma I think from 303 00:14:14,269 --> 00:14:10,260 that from that beautiful valley scene on 304 00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:14,279 the butterfly wing waterfalls pools of 305 00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:19,230 water indescribable colors and above 306 00:14:25,220 --> 00:14:21,630 there were these arcs of silver and gold 307 00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:25,230 light and beautiful hems coming down 308 00:14:29,540 --> 00:14:27,360 from them and described ibly gorgeous 309 00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:29,550 hymns and I later came to call 310 00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:31,830 of them angels those arcs of light in 311 00:14:38,139 --> 00:14:35,910 the sky um and I think that word is 312 00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:38,149 probably fairly accurate um 313 00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:42,230 the on this butterfly wing the first 314 00:14:50,030 --> 00:14:47,480 time I was there I remember having this 315 00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:50,040 sensation It was as if there was a warm 316 00:14:57,710 --> 00:14:53,910 summer breeze that just blew by and then 317 00:15:01,250 --> 00:14:57,720 everything changed and the scene stayed 318 00:15:03,410 --> 00:15:01,260 the same but I became aware again in 319 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:03,420 looking back on it that was my awareness 320 00:15:12,139 --> 00:15:07,310 of a divine presence of incredibly 321 00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:12,149 indescribable Oh kind of a super power 322 00:15:19,730 --> 00:15:16,740 of divinity and then we went out of this 323 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:19,740 universe and I remember just seeing 324 00:15:27,259 --> 00:15:22,890 everything receding and initially I felt 325 00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,269 as if my awareness was in a gigantic I 326 00:15:34,250 --> 00:15:30,000 mean an infinite black void it was very 327 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:34,260 comforting but I could feel the extent 328 00:15:41,329 --> 00:15:39,240 of the infinity and and that it was as 329 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:41,339 you would expect impossible to put into 330 00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:45,600 words and I was there with that divine 331 00:15:51,319 --> 00:15:47,760 presence that was not anything that I 332 00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:51,329 could visibly see and describe and with 333 00:15:57,620 --> 00:15:54,959 an orb a brilliant orb of light and and 334 00:15:59,690 --> 00:15:57,630 there was a distinct sensation for me or 335 00:16:01,940 --> 00:15:59,700 memory that they were not one in the 336 00:16:04,910 --> 00:16:01,950 same and I don't know what that means in 337 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:04,920 my awareness when I say I was aware this 338 00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,490 goes far far beyond the consciousness of 339 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:11,120 anyone this is not Evan Alexander's 340 00:16:13,460 --> 00:16:13,110 consciousness aware of being in that 341 00:16:17,630 --> 00:16:13,470 space 342 00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:17,640 I was far beyond that point way beyond 343 00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:19,760 any kind of human consciousness and 344 00:16:25,370 --> 00:16:23,430 really just one consciousness and when I 345 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:25,380 got there they said that I would be 346 00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:29,010 going back but I didn't know what that 347 00:16:32,269 --> 00:16:30,720 meant and they said there were many 348 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:32,279 things that they would show me and they 349 00:16:36,650 --> 00:16:34,769 they continued to do that and in fact 350 00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:36,660 the whole higher dimensional multiverse 351 00:16:42,620 --> 00:16:40,079 was this incredibly complex corrugated 352 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:42,630 ball and all these lessons 353 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:44,850 into me about it and part of the lessons 354 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:47,730 involved becoming all of what I was 355 00:16:56,449 --> 00:16:53,130 being shown and it was indescribable 356 00:16:58,430 --> 00:16:56,459 but then I would find myself and time 357 00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:58,440 out there I can say is totally different 358 00:17:02,870 --> 00:17:00,959 from what we call time I mean there was 359 00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:02,880 access from out there to any part of our 360 00:17:06,919 --> 00:17:05,520 space-time and that made it difficult to 361 00:17:08,689 --> 00:17:06,929 understand a lot of these memories 362 00:17:11,169 --> 00:17:08,699 because we always try to seek with 363 00:17:13,549 --> 00:17:11,179 sequence things and put them in a linear 364 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:13,559 form and description and that just 365 00:17:19,819 --> 00:17:16,890 really doesn't work but suffice it to 366 00:17:22,490 --> 00:17:19,829 say that I would find myself back at the 367 00:17:25,699 --> 00:17:22,500 earthworm I view and what I learned was 368 00:17:31,310 --> 00:17:25,709 if I could recall the notes of that 369 00:17:33,169 --> 00:17:31,320 melody the spinning melody uh that would 370 00:17:35,899 --> 00:17:33,179 start the melody spinning again that 371 00:17:38,810 --> 00:17:35,909 would take me back into that beautiful 372 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:38,820 crisp clear hyper real valley on the 373 00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,650 butterfly wing my guardian angel was 374 00:17:45,890 --> 00:17:42,720 always there and she was always very 375 00:17:47,870 --> 00:17:45,900 comforting and then we would go out into 376 00:17:50,690 --> 00:17:47,880 what I came to call the core which was 377 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:50,700 outside of the entire physical universe 378 00:17:54,830 --> 00:17:53,490 and again they would show lessons and 379 00:17:57,980 --> 00:17:54,840 often those lessons would involve 380 00:18:00,200 --> 00:17:57,990 becoming a tremendous part of what they 381 00:18:03,470 --> 00:18:00,210 were demonstrating and so much of it is 382 00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:03,480 just indescribable and so much of it you 383 00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:06,390 really mean there are reasons why we 384 00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:10,200 cannot bring a lot of that back and 385 00:18:15,730 --> 00:18:11,520 there are reasons 386 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:15,740 in fact why I mean I've come to see um 387 00:18:22,159 --> 00:18:18,210 you know that we're conscious in in 388 00:18:24,350 --> 00:18:22,169 spite of our brain and it really to me 389 00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:24,360 that makes a lot more sense and I go 390 00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:26,870 into detail about all that my book but 391 00:18:35,289 --> 00:18:31,049 it turns out that I would oscillate from 392 00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:35,299 this beautiful idyllic place in the core 393 00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,799 coming back down into earth for my view 394 00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:43,200 and it seems it was three or four times 395 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:45,510 like I said sequencing was so strange 396 00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:47,730 because when I was in the earth where my 397 00:18:55,370 --> 00:18:52,110 view um everything seemed to be one kind 398 00:18:55,740 --> 00:18:55,380 of soup of just kind of mixed foam and 399 00:18:58,020 --> 00:18:55,750 there 400 00:19:00,150 --> 00:18:58,030 it was very hard to put sequins on it 401 00:19:02,370 --> 00:19:00,160 but it was very clear to me that several 402 00:19:04,890 --> 00:19:02,380 times I would use the memory of those 403 00:19:08,340 --> 00:19:04,900 notes and spend that melody and go back 404 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:08,350 in and then it just and they would 405 00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:10,450 always say you you are not here to stay 406 00:19:17,670 --> 00:19:13,180 no dr. Alexander a couple of quick first 407 00:19:24,650 --> 00:19:17,680 what is the title of your book okay well 408 00:19:26,430 --> 00:19:24,660 I I'm going through several possible 409 00:19:29,250 --> 00:19:26,440 agents right now I don't have a 410 00:19:30,990 --> 00:19:29,260 publisher and I have a feeling that you 411 00:19:33,030 --> 00:19:31,000 know agents and publishers will have 412 00:19:36,060 --> 00:19:33,040 their own ideas what I can tell you is 413 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:36,070 the tentative working title right now 414 00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:40,270 and this could easily change um is life 415 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:45,270 life beyond death a neurosurgeons 416 00:19:52,380 --> 00:19:50,410 life-changing near-death a let me hone 417 00:19:55,860 --> 00:19:52,390 in on a couple of things it's an amazing 418 00:19:59,880 --> 00:19:55,870 experience an amazing account tell us a 419 00:20:02,010 --> 00:19:59,890 little bit about coming back into this 420 00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:02,020 world because I want to hone in on a 421 00:20:06,830 --> 00:20:04,630 couple of things that we need to nail 422 00:20:09,810 --> 00:20:06,840 down if we're going to really try and 423 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:09,820 understand this account from our world 424 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:12,010 and what I want to one thing I want to 425 00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:15,220 nail down is the time perspective how do 426 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:18,240 we know that these memories were formed 427 00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:20,710 during the time when you're in a coma 428 00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:22,720 you've already laid out a couple of 429 00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:25,180 points about that and that normally we 430 00:20:29,850 --> 00:20:26,710 wouldn't even expect you to have a lot 431 00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,860 of clear coherent memories three days 432 00:20:33,290 --> 00:20:31,600 after coming out of this coma but you 433 00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:33,300 said that's when you started writing 434 00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:35,740 down this account you also said you 435 00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:37,840 tried not to contaminate your memories 436 00:20:42,930 --> 00:20:39,820 with talking to other people so those 437 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:42,940 are good parts of your story what are 438 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:44,290 some other aspects of it that you can 439 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:45,970 tell us that make you confident that 440 00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:47,890 these memories were formed while you 441 00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:50,980 were in this severely compromised mental 442 00:20:56,490 --> 00:20:53,470 state I can tell you when I first 443 00:20:58,290 --> 00:20:56,500 started waking up it was very shocking 444 00:21:01,950 --> 00:20:58,300 because I as I said I didn't have 445 00:21:05,790 --> 00:21:01,960 memories of my life before and my family 446 00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:05,800 loved ones sisters my wife and sons they 447 00:21:10,420 --> 00:21:07,400 were there 448 00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:10,430 so initially I in fact I have a very 449 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:12,320 distinct memory as I was emerging which 450 00:21:16,570 --> 00:21:15,050 is on the seventh day of coma and I 451 00:21:18,130 --> 00:21:16,580 still had the I was still on the 452 00:21:23,710 --> 00:21:18,140 ventilator still had the endotracheal 453 00:21:26,350 --> 00:21:23,720 tube in and my awareness was of several 454 00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:26,360 phases and I remember one was my wife 455 00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:28,550 and one was a good friend of ours who 456 00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:30,350 was also my infectious disease doctor 457 00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:34,400 and a neighbor dr. Scott Wade and then 458 00:21:38,020 --> 00:21:36,470 one was also my ten-year-old son and 459 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:38,030 these phases were there I did not 460 00:21:43,570 --> 00:21:40,610 recognize them they would say words I 461 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:43,580 didn't understand the words but I had a 462 00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,530 very powerful visual memory they would 463 00:21:50,290 --> 00:21:47,840 kind of boil up out of the muck and then 464 00:21:53,230 --> 00:21:50,300 they'd go away I'm fairly sure that that 465 00:21:54,910 --> 00:21:53,240 was Sunday morning because much much 466 00:21:56,980 --> 00:21:54,920 later after I'd written everything down 467 00:21:59,169 --> 00:21:56,990 and I did start asking people about 468 00:22:01,240 --> 00:21:59,179 things that had happened it seemed that 469 00:22:02,470 --> 00:22:01,250 that's when people were doing that now 470 00:22:04,930 --> 00:22:02,480 in fact they've been doing it all week 471 00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:04,940 but I've been I think I was unaware of 472 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:06,740 it during the week and that's mainly 473 00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:08,650 based on the people that I do remember 474 00:22:14,890 --> 00:22:11,030 seeing who were only those who are there 475 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:14,900 that Sunday morning um and my language 476 00:22:20,530 --> 00:22:17,570 started coming back very quickly and so 477 00:22:23,169 --> 00:22:20,540 did my visual cortex because I think and 478 00:22:26,830 --> 00:22:23,179 again it's so hard to put a time label 479 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:26,840 on this but in talking with people who 480 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:30,290 were there I think that probably over an 481 00:22:36,370 --> 00:22:33,530 hour 2 or 3 I started getting language 482 00:22:38,350 --> 00:22:36,380 back quickly my auditory cortex started 483 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:38,360 coming online my ability to understand 484 00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:40,490 speech so what called Wernicke's area in 485 00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:43,400 the dominant temporal lobe was starting 486 00:22:46,210 --> 00:22:44,720 to come back up to speed and I can 487 00:22:49,419 --> 00:22:46,220 understand things I could then start 488 00:22:54,130 --> 00:22:49,429 making speech um so I was having a very 489 00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:54,140 rapid return of cortical function um but 490 00:22:59,770 --> 00:22:56,960 I was still kind of in and out of 491 00:23:02,410 --> 00:22:59,780 reality I in fact in my book I go into 492 00:23:05,620 --> 00:23:02,420 great detail describing what I call the 493 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:05,630 nightmare which was kind of a paranoid a 494 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:08,450 a crazy thing that where I was halfway 495 00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:12,290 in and out of the reality and in my son 496 00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:15,200 my younger son bond I mean he can 497 00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:16,880 describe it to you it was kind of a very 498 00:23:20,890 --> 00:23:18,950 frightening thing because I would seem 499 00:23:21,370 --> 00:23:20,900 to be with it and then I'd be saying 500 00:23:23,740 --> 00:23:21,380 things 501 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:23,750 we're just out of out of my mind and of 502 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:26,330 course initially as I explained to some 503 00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:28,490 of my physicians what I remembered was 504 00:23:34,419 --> 00:23:32,030 this incredibly powerful hyper real 505 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:34,429 spiritual experience they would say oh 506 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:37,250 yes well you you were very very sick we 507 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:40,370 thought you're going to die and you know 508 00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:42,049 I can't even believe that you're back I 509 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:43,520 mean they were predicting that I would 510 00:23:47,260 --> 00:23:44,809 have two to three months in the hospital 511 00:23:49,450 --> 00:23:47,270 and then need chronic care for the rest 512 00:23:51,789 --> 00:23:49,460 of my life so they were obviously quite 513 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:51,799 shocked that I that I came back like I 514 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:54,890 did it was just so strange but initially 515 00:23:59,830 --> 00:23:56,510 I thought well gosh it was it was almost 516 00:24:02,350 --> 00:23:59,840 too real to be real I mean it that hyper 517 00:24:04,210 --> 00:24:02,360 reality that people describe I just wish 518 00:24:05,470 --> 00:24:04,220 we could bottle that up and give it to 519 00:24:07,659 --> 00:24:05,480 people so they could see what it's like 520 00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:07,669 because it is not something that is 521 00:24:13,570 --> 00:24:10,220 going to be explained by these little 522 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:13,580 simplistic kind of you know talking 523 00:24:18,850 --> 00:24:16,490 about co2 and oxygen levels and I mean 524 00:24:20,740 --> 00:24:18,860 that that just won't work I promise you 525 00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:20,750 that won't work that's an interesting 526 00:24:27,130 --> 00:24:24,460 point because as you mentioned briefly 527 00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:27,140 you know it won't work because you 528 00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:30,020 actually went and tried to see if there 529 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:31,760 was a model that you're aware of from 530 00:24:35,460 --> 00:24:33,770 your training that could fit your 531 00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:35,470 experience right so you became a 532 00:24:40,899 --> 00:24:38,960 near-death experience or who became a 533 00:24:42,820 --> 00:24:40,909 near-death experience researcher from a 534 00:24:43,930 --> 00:24:42,830 neuro physiological standpoint and I 535 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:43,940 think that's one of the things that 536 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:46,490 really draws people to your story tell 537 00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:49,010 us a little bit more about your your 538 00:24:53,470 --> 00:24:51,919 quest to understand this from your from 539 00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:53,480 the perspective of your background as a 540 00:24:58,210 --> 00:24:56,510 neurosurgeon okay well I can tell you 541 00:25:01,690 --> 00:24:58,220 that you know I mentioned a few minutes 542 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:01,700 ago that initially I was kind of getting 543 00:25:07,500 --> 00:25:03,710 the message from my physicians that I 544 00:25:11,649 --> 00:25:07,510 was extremely sick and you know it 545 00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:11,659 doesn't surprise them that that I had 546 00:25:17,169 --> 00:25:15,590 very very unusual memories there was one 547 00:25:19,630 --> 00:25:17,179 other thing that really got my attention 548 00:25:22,060 --> 00:25:19,640 that I'll mention and that is I told you 549 00:25:25,330 --> 00:25:22,070 about the faces I saw kind of floating 550 00:25:27,070 --> 00:25:25,340 in the muck which I think you know again 551 00:25:30,130 --> 00:25:27,080 it's a hard to put a time on it I know 552 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:30,140 that some of them appeared that Sunday 553 00:25:34,210 --> 00:25:32,210 morning and maybe the Saturday afternoon 554 00:25:34,510 --> 00:25:34,220 and some could have could have been 555 00:25:36,250 --> 00:25:34,520 early 556 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:36,260 and there was one that that I think was 557 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:38,090 earlier although she seems like all the 558 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:41,570 rest and her her name is Susan wrenches 559 00:25:45,730 --> 00:25:43,490 and she's a friend of my wife's they 560 00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:45,740 work together you know 25 years earlier 561 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:51,260 teaching in Raleigh and Susan's had a 562 00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:53,810 lot of experience of helping coma 563 00:26:00,340 --> 00:25:55,520 patients she wrote a book called third 564 00:26:03,460 --> 00:26:00,350 eye open and it involves of her going 565 00:26:06,460 --> 00:26:03,470 into a state or trance and and then 566 00:26:08,410 --> 00:26:06,470 going to them you know in whatever 567 00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:08,420 fashion I that's not something I claim 568 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:11,900 to understand but not through the 569 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:14,930 physical material realm and in fact 570 00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:16,490 she'd done that with a lot of patients 571 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:18,590 and she discussed that in her book and 572 00:26:26,620 --> 00:26:22,310 she Holly called her up I think it was 573 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:26,630 Thursday night that Susan heard all this 574 00:26:30,730 --> 00:26:28,850 and said yes I'll try and help and I 575 00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:30,740 remember her being there very clearly I 576 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:32,240 mean just like all the rest she was 577 00:26:37,630 --> 00:26:35,690 there and she she never was physically 578 00:26:38,260 --> 00:26:37,640 there she did this from Chapel Hill 579 00:26:41,350 --> 00:26:38,270 where she lives 580 00:26:43,090 --> 00:26:41,360 um and of course in the first few days 581 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:43,100 as I was coming around and I told my 582 00:26:47,710 --> 00:26:45,050 wife about the six phases that I 583 00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:47,720 remembered that does not include my 584 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:50,000 guardian angel who I still didn't know 585 00:26:55,630 --> 00:26:53,450 at that time oh but those six phases I 586 00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:55,640 said and Susan drenches was there and 587 00:27:01,240 --> 00:26:58,570 Holly said well she she did come to you 588 00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:01,250 you know channeling or whatever she came 589 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:03,710 to you in the psychic realm and I can 590 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:05,210 tell you when Holly told me that I said 591 00:27:09,670 --> 00:27:08,090 you know of course you know you know 592 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:09,680 don't need any explanation for that and 593 00:27:14,220 --> 00:27:12,410 of course as I healed it probably took 594 00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:14,230 three or four weeks for a lot of my 595 00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:17,270 neuroscience a neurosurgical training to 596 00:27:22,570 --> 00:27:21,350 come back and all along that time I you 597 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:22,580 know I was still writing all this down 598 00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:25,850 and and not reading anything I was very 599 00:27:29,290 --> 00:27:27,860 tempted but my son had told me you want 600 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:29,300 this be worthwhile don't read anything 601 00:27:35,710 --> 00:27:33,290 else just write it all down and I was I 602 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:35,720 just was shocked I was buffeted because 603 00:27:40,690 --> 00:27:38,690 my neuroscience mind said no I couldn't 604 00:27:43,090 --> 00:27:40,700 happen the more I heard about how sick I 605 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:43,100 was my cortex shut down no that's 606 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:45,510 impossible your cortex was down and 607 00:27:51,710 --> 00:27:48,650 for a while I was going after the 608 00:27:53,780 --> 00:27:51,720 hypotheses that involved formation of 609 00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:53,790 these very complex intricate memories 610 00:27:58,159 --> 00:27:55,919 either right before my coma or right 611 00:28:00,080 --> 00:27:58,169 coming out of it and of course that 612 00:28:03,020 --> 00:28:00,090 really did not explain it 613 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:03,030 at all part of the problem when you get 614 00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:04,970 right down to it is that whole issue of 615 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:08,340 remembering the melody because that was 616 00:28:13,940 --> 00:28:11,610 a very clear part of it that I I 617 00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:13,950 remember the elation when I figured that 618 00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:16,049 I could just remember that melody and 619 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:17,790 that spun the melody in front of me and 620 00:28:22,419 --> 00:28:20,250 then all sudden boom everything opened 621 00:28:26,539 --> 00:28:22,429 up and I went back out into that valley 622 00:28:28,430 --> 00:28:26,549 so crisp and beautiful and my my angel 623 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:28,440 was with me as I came to call her my 624 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:30,570 companion on the butterfly wing and then 625 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:32,730 out into the core outside of the 626 00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:35,970 universe and very difficult to explain 627 00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:38,820 that fluctuation I guess one could 628 00:28:43,220 --> 00:28:40,980 always argue well your brain was 629 00:28:46,070 --> 00:28:43,230 probably you know just barely able to 630 00:28:48,380 --> 00:28:46,080 ignite real consciousness and then it 631 00:28:50,419 --> 00:28:48,390 would flip back into a very diseased 632 00:28:54,380 --> 00:28:50,429 state which doesn't make any sense to me 633 00:28:57,169 --> 00:28:54,390 especially because that hyperreal state 634 00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:57,179 is so indescribable and so crisp it's 635 00:29:01,220 --> 00:28:59,760 totally unlike any drug experience a lot 636 00:29:03,710 --> 00:29:01,230 of people have come up to me and said oh 637 00:29:05,659 --> 00:29:03,720 that sounds like a DMT experience or 638 00:29:08,659 --> 00:29:05,669 that sounds like ketamine and you know 639 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:08,669 not at all I mean that is not even in 640 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:11,730 the right ballpark those things do not 641 00:29:17,419 --> 00:29:13,530 explain the kind of clarity the rich 642 00:29:20,330 --> 00:29:17,429 interactivity the layer upon layer of 643 00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:20,340 kind of understanding and of lessons 644 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:22,020 taught by deceased loved ones and 645 00:29:27,860 --> 00:29:25,110 spiritual beings and of course they're 646 00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:27,870 all deceased loved ones I've kind of 647 00:29:31,940 --> 00:29:30,240 wondered you know where is it that these 648 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:31,950 people are coming from that they say oh 649 00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:35,130 the brain was very sick but it was very 650 00:29:39,460 --> 00:29:37,230 selective and made sure it only 651 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:39,470 remembered deceased loved ones I mean 652 00:29:43,250 --> 00:29:41,850 they're just not hearing something you 653 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:43,260 know I think that that brings up a very 654 00:29:46,669 --> 00:29:44,610 interesting point and one that we've 655 00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:46,679 covered a lot on this on this show 656 00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:49,380 because to be fair well not only to be 657 00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:51,360 fair but to try and really understand 658 00:29:56,450 --> 00:29:53,760 the entire phenomena and understand how 659 00:29:57,980 --> 00:29:56,460 it fits in our culture in our society 660 00:29:59,000 --> 00:29:57,990 which i think is important because here 661 00:30:01,120 --> 00:29:59,010 you are 662 00:30:03,230 --> 00:30:01,130 like yourself with your obvious 663 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:03,240 intellectual capabilities but also 664 00:30:08,060 --> 00:30:05,610 medical understanding and you have this 665 00:30:09,860 --> 00:30:08,070 experience and you have to come back and 666 00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:09,870 try and make it make sense with all your 667 00:30:14,180 --> 00:30:12,030 training and I think all the rest of us 668 00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:14,190 are right there with you trying to make 669 00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:16,880 sense of these completely 670 00:30:22,610 --> 00:30:20,340 counterintuitive experiences and then 671 00:30:25,220 --> 00:30:22,620 trying to jam them back in our head and 672 00:30:28,130 --> 00:30:25,230 in our experience and in that sense I do 673 00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:28,140 have a lot of empathy and appreciation 674 00:30:31,580 --> 00:30:28,950 for the NDE 675 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:31,590 researchers both the skeptical ones and 676 00:30:36,290 --> 00:30:34,110 the non skeptical ones so let me talk a 677 00:30:39,620 --> 00:30:36,300 little bit about that in de research and 678 00:30:41,870 --> 00:30:39,630 get your perspective on it because of 679 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:41,880 course there are a few of these brave 680 00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:44,010 researchers out there who've stuck their 681 00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:46,590 neck out really only a very few and have 682 00:30:51,380 --> 00:30:48,720 tried to tackle this but it seems to me 683 00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:51,390 that they're really barely making a dent 684 00:30:57,140 --> 00:30:55,260 in the medical model that we have I mean 685 00:31:00,560 --> 00:30:57,150 the medical model that we have sees us 686 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:00,570 as these biological robots and death as 687 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:04,050 kind of ultimate boogeyman and can we 688 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:06,930 really believe that we're going to 689 00:31:15,550 --> 00:31:11,730 change such an entrenched system I think 690 00:31:19,390 --> 00:31:15,560 so I think that is very much a 691 00:31:21,950 --> 00:31:19,400 possibility and what it really takes um 692 00:31:25,490 --> 00:31:21,960 you know there's this this whole issue 693 00:31:31,310 --> 00:31:25,500 of mind and brain and you know kind of 694 00:31:33,130 --> 00:31:31,320 duality versus non dualism and kind of 695 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:33,140 material the physical material 696 00:31:39,620 --> 00:31:37,290 reductivist kind of models and I think 697 00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:39,630 you know I'll go into this in great 698 00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:41,190 detail in my book but I think you have 699 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:43,230 to go back about 3,000 years to really 700 00:31:49,610 --> 00:31:45,810 get to the beginning of the discussion 701 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:49,620 and to start to see why certain things 702 00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:52,890 have transpired and I think most 703 00:31:57,890 --> 00:31:55,260 importantly I was the part of this 704 00:32:02,480 --> 00:31:57,900 discussion that happened between a Rene 705 00:32:05,540 --> 00:32:02,490 Descartes and Spinoza oh you know back 706 00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:05,550 in the 17th century they kind of started 707 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:08,460 us into our current era and our current 708 00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,380 kind of mind uh you know in our 709 00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:17,760 consciousness in our soul and all that 710 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:20,940 has been put in the realm of the church 711 00:32:25,460 --> 00:32:22,850 more or less that that was kind of a 712 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:25,470 truth of sorts that I guess Descartes 713 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:28,410 came up with back then to say there's 714 00:32:34,909 --> 00:32:31,890 mind and then there's body and you know 715 00:32:37,130 --> 00:32:34,919 just let the natural scientists those 716 00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:37,140 with an interest like Francis Bacon and 717 00:32:42,590 --> 00:32:39,840 Galileo and Newton oh you know let's not 718 00:32:44,810 --> 00:32:42,600 burn them all at the stake let some of 719 00:32:48,020 --> 00:32:44,820 them survive so I think it was a good 720 00:32:51,049 --> 00:32:48,030 thing to have that truce 721 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:51,059 so that science survived but I mean I'm 722 00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:53,370 a scientist and I love science in the 723 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:55,080 scientific method I've just come to 724 00:33:01,610 --> 00:32:58,410 realize that the the universe is much 725 00:33:05,180 --> 00:33:01,620 grander than then we appreciate and so I 726 00:33:06,890 --> 00:33:05,190 have to simply broaden my definitions I 727 00:33:10,850 --> 00:33:06,900 think science is still very important to 728 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:10,860 get us there of getting back to you know 729 00:33:16,370 --> 00:33:13,710 that mind brain issue what happened over 730 00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:16,380 time of course is science kind of grew 731 00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:17,790 up and you ought to be more and more 732 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:20,520 powerful at giving us many things and 733 00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:25,049 and science has been a real wonder but I 734 00:33:31,630 --> 00:33:28,320 think that it's been somewhat at a price 735 00:33:34,669 --> 00:33:31,640 and that price came from splitting out a 736 00:33:37,159 --> 00:33:34,679 you know mind and body back then in that 737 00:33:38,659 --> 00:33:37,169 kind of dualistic approach because it's 738 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:38,669 science gained more and more of an upper 739 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:43,290 hand people were losing track of the the 740 00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:44,730 kind of mind part of it the 741 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:47,220 consciousness part let's talk about that 742 00:33:53,030 --> 00:33:49,530 a little bit right now because part of 743 00:33:55,039 --> 00:33:53,040 that does seem to be contradictory to 744 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:55,049 your experience and the experience we've 745 00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:56,370 heard from other folks who had these 746 00:34:01,450 --> 00:33:58,320 transformative spiritual experiences in 747 00:34:04,460 --> 00:34:01,460 this way in that if there is this 748 00:34:06,020 --> 00:34:04,470 broader knowing and much broader knowing 749 00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:06,030 broader doesn't even begin to describe 750 00:34:09,889 --> 00:34:07,860 it but that we hear over and over again 751 00:34:11,720 --> 00:34:09,899 we hear it from your account we hear it 752 00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:11,730 from many near-death experience accounts 753 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:14,129 we also hear it from all sorts of 754 00:34:18,349 --> 00:34:15,810 transformative spiritual accounts 755 00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:18,359 Kundalini accounts spontaneous spiritual 756 00:34:23,810 --> 00:34:21,119 awakenings there's this sense of knowing 757 00:34:24,349 --> 00:34:23,820 much much greater knowing that then that 758 00:34:27,019 --> 00:34:24,359 then 759 00:34:29,869 --> 00:34:27,029 must be kind of crammed back into our 760 00:34:31,759 --> 00:34:29,879 body and it doesn't need it you know so 761 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:31,769 your account says that and others do as 762 00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:32,210 well 763 00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:36,960 can we really then hope to get out of 764 00:34:41,479 --> 00:34:39,119 the consciousness loop that we're in now 765 00:34:42,049 --> 00:34:41,489 can't is it just going to be a matter of 766 00:34:44,720 --> 00:34:42,059 Oh 767 00:34:47,619 --> 00:34:44,730 a philosophical shift like we had back 768 00:34:49,759 --> 00:34:47,629 in the 1700s or is there something 769 00:34:52,909 --> 00:34:49,769 fundamental to the way that we're 770 00:34:55,129 --> 00:34:52,919 constructed that's going to keep us 771 00:34:58,249 --> 00:34:55,139 limited in how much we can really tap 772 00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:58,259 into and understand that knowing that 773 00:35:06,950 --> 00:35:01,680 you experienced in my view what what I 774 00:35:09,529 --> 00:35:06,960 think is going to happen is that science 775 00:35:13,789 --> 00:35:09,539 in the much broader sense of the word 776 00:35:16,190 --> 00:35:13,799 and spirituality which will be mainly an 777 00:35:19,339 --> 00:35:16,200 acknowledgement of the profound nature 778 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:19,349 of our consciousness will grow closer 779 00:35:26,059 --> 00:35:22,650 and closer together and we will all move 780 00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:26,069 forward into a far more enlightened 781 00:35:34,329 --> 00:35:28,680 world one thing that we will have to let 782 00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,339 go of is this kind of addiction to 783 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:37,200 simplistic primitive reductive 784 00:35:44,509 --> 00:35:40,529 materialism because there's there's 785 00:35:48,769 --> 00:35:44,519 really no way that I can see a reductive 786 00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:48,779 materialist model coming remotely in the 787 00:35:54,859 --> 00:35:52,079 right ballpark to explain what we really 788 00:35:57,370 --> 00:35:54,869 know about consciousness now and you 789 00:36:00,859 --> 00:35:57,380 know coming from a neurosurgeon who 790 00:36:02,630 --> 00:36:00,869 before my coma I thought I was quite 791 00:36:04,849 --> 00:36:02,640 certain how the brain and the mind 792 00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:04,859 interacted and it was clear to me that 793 00:36:09,470 --> 00:36:07,680 there were many things I could do or see 794 00:36:12,019 --> 00:36:09,480 done on my patients and it would 795 00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:12,029 eliminate consciousness and and it was 796 00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:15,839 very clear of in that realm that the 797 00:36:19,460 --> 00:36:17,460 brain gives you consciousness and 798 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:19,470 everything else and when the brain dies 799 00:36:25,489 --> 00:36:22,170 there goes consciousness soul mind it's 800 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:25,499 all gone and it was clear now having 801 00:36:30,190 --> 00:36:27,690 been through my coma I can tell you that 802 00:36:32,809 --> 00:36:30,200 that's exactly wrong and that in fact 803 00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:32,819 the main income of the mind and 804 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:35,710 consciousness are independent of the 805 00:36:40,020 --> 00:36:37,890 brain it's very hard to explain that 806 00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:40,030 certainly if you're if you're limiting 807 00:36:45,089 --> 00:36:41,830 yourself to that reductive materialist 808 00:36:48,329 --> 00:36:45,099 view and to any of any of the scientists 809 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:48,339 in the crowd who want to get in on this 810 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:52,450 what I would recommend there's there's 811 00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:54,970 one book that I kind of consider the 812 00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:57,520 Bible of this and it's a wonderful book 813 00:37:01,950 --> 00:36:59,920 but it is really for those who have a 814 00:37:05,070 --> 00:37:01,960 strong scientific interest in it and 815 00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:05,080 it's called irreducible mind Edward 816 00:37:09,150 --> 00:37:06,790 Kelly Emily Williams Kelly 817 00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:09,160 Bruce Grayson you know Adam Crabtree 818 00:37:16,140 --> 00:37:12,280 Alan gold micro graça the whole group 819 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:16,150 from Esalen and also based in the 820 00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:17,890 division of perceptual studies at the 821 00:37:23,250 --> 00:37:20,380 University of Virginia I have done an 822 00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:23,260 incredibly good job toward a psychology 823 00:37:27,359 --> 00:37:25,390 for the 21st century it's the subtitle 824 00:37:29,550 --> 00:37:27,369 and that's exactly what it is and I 825 00:37:31,859 --> 00:37:29,560 thought their book was was quite 826 00:37:35,310 --> 00:37:31,869 illustrative and of course it caused a 827 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:35,320 huge splash when it came out in 1987 but 828 00:37:40,290 --> 00:37:37,210 again a lot of the reductive 829 00:37:44,010 --> 00:37:40,300 materialists like myself were not really 830 00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:44,020 going to put in the work to you know go 831 00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:45,460 through all of that and we just thought 832 00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:47,320 well we can't understand it so it can't 833 00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:50,140 be true I think you're being a little 834 00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:51,760 bit too generous there because some of 835 00:37:56,670 --> 00:37:54,910 the folks do do the work do tap into the 836 00:38:00,570 --> 00:37:56,680 research and still come out the other 837 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:00,580 end holding on to that materialistic 838 00:38:04,829 --> 00:38:02,770 model that we're stuck with here because 839 00:38:07,650 --> 00:38:04,839 there's a lot invested in it and with 840 00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:07,660 that what I wanted to do was I sent you 841 00:38:12,329 --> 00:38:09,609 a couple of audio clips that I thought 842 00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:12,339 you might like to respond to and because 843 00:38:16,859 --> 00:38:13,839 it fits in to what you're just talking 844 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:16,869 about people who have been they walked 845 00:38:21,060 --> 00:38:18,730 in your shoes and are still there in 846 00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:21,070 that model so the first clip I'd like to 847 00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:22,960 play for you is a former guest on this 848 00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:25,089 show dr. Steven novella who is a 849 00:38:32,220 --> 00:38:28,950 clinical neurologist at Yale University 850 00:38:35,250 --> 00:38:32,230 well-known and outspoken skeptic of 851 00:38:37,020 --> 00:38:35,260 near-death experiences but a nice guy 852 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:37,030 who's willing to engage the topic so 853 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:38,410 what I thought I'd do is play this 854 00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:41,530 little clip and see any response you 855 00:38:46,530 --> 00:38:44,560 might have to it okay all right the 856 00:38:49,230 --> 00:38:46,540 three basic kinds of explanations are 857 00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:49,240 wanted spiritual that it represents the 858 00:38:52,770 --> 00:38:51,040 that the mind can exist separate from 859 00:38:55,380 --> 00:38:52,780 the brain the second one is that it's a 860 00:38:57,150 --> 00:38:55,390 psychological experience of some sort 861 00:38:58,730 --> 00:38:57,160 and then the third is that it's it's 862 00:39:02,300 --> 00:38:58,740 organic it's it's neuro physiological 863 00:39:04,170 --> 00:39:02,310 the evidence and some of the best 864 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:04,180 explanatory models that people are 865 00:39:09,450 --> 00:39:06,850 putting forward are blending the second 866 00:39:12,210 --> 00:39:09,460 to the psychological and the organic 867 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:12,220 that the neuroscientific think what 868 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:14,530 we're seeing is that there's a core 869 00:39:20,460 --> 00:39:18,250 experience that's primarily organic it's 870 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:20,470 what just have the kinds of things that 871 00:39:26,670 --> 00:39:22,690 can happen to the brain under various 872 00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:26,680 kinds of stress now I gotta add that if 873 00:39:31,850 --> 00:39:28,660 you really listen to the whole interview 874 00:39:33,810 --> 00:39:31,860 with Steve and the follow-up that we had 875 00:39:36,660 --> 00:39:33,820 what he's talking about is really a 876 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:36,670 bunch of fluff really there really isn't 877 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:39,130 a research that shows any neuro 878 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:41,290 physiological cause for near-death 879 00:39:44,910 --> 00:39:43,510 experience and I really kind of held his 880 00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:44,920 feet to the fire and he was unable to 881 00:39:51,750 --> 00:39:48,250 produce anything of really any real 882 00:39:53,490 --> 00:39:51,760 substance about that research but maybe 883 00:39:55,950 --> 00:39:53,500 you can talk because it speaks so much 884 00:39:59,520 --> 00:39:55,960 to I guess the position that you were in 885 00:40:01,800 --> 00:39:59,530 just a few years ago about that position 886 00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:01,810 and that kind of entrenched it has to be 887 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:03,190 in the brain kind of thing and how you 888 00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:05,050 think that relates to near-death 889 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:08,470 experience I would say for one thing I 890 00:40:15,540 --> 00:40:12,690 think that you know a healthy skeptical 891 00:40:17,490 --> 00:40:15,550 approach to all this is a good thing 892 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:17,500 because it helps us get to the truth it 893 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:20,770 helps us know the answer and what we 894 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:23,290 have to be careful of of course is not 895 00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:26,170 getting in the trap of having our 896 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:30,160 prejudice rule the day because a lot of 897 00:40:36,599 --> 00:40:33,330 these experiments a lot of these studies 898 00:40:40,170 --> 00:40:36,609 how you interpret them will depend a lot 899 00:40:44,580 --> 00:40:40,180 on of you know what your prejudices are 900 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:44,590 going in and I found early on in my 901 00:40:49,590 --> 00:40:46,690 experience I had to do as Descartes 902 00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:49,600 recommended when he was talking about 903 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:52,150 getting to the truth and that was to 904 00:40:58,910 --> 00:40:55,690 really up to ignore or to reject 905 00:41:01,770 --> 00:40:58,920 everything everything I had ever 906 00:41:03,069 --> 00:41:01,780 accepted as real that was the only way 907 00:41:06,819 --> 00:41:03,079 to start getting to where I 908 00:41:10,029 --> 00:41:06,829 could figure any of this out and I know 909 00:41:12,969 --> 00:41:10,039 that a lot of the reductive kind of 910 00:41:15,099 --> 00:41:12,979 scientific crowd out there I have a 911 00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:15,109 favorite quote from Stephen Hawking he 912 00:41:18,759 --> 00:41:16,640 says there's a fundamental difference 913 00:41:21,249 --> 00:41:18,769 between religion which is based on 914 00:41:23,319 --> 00:41:21,259 Authority or imposed dogma and faith as 915 00:41:25,839 --> 00:41:23,329 opposed to science which is based on 916 00:41:28,269 --> 00:41:25,849 observation and reason and what I would 917 00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:28,279 say is I think his statement is true as 918 00:41:34,089 --> 00:41:32,569 a general statement of but that science 919 00:41:37,180 --> 00:41:34,099 and certainly those who believe in 920 00:41:40,109 --> 00:41:37,190 science and scientists are as prone to 921 00:41:44,410 --> 00:41:40,119 addiction to impose Dogma and faith as 922 00:41:46,809 --> 00:41:44,420 as our you know religious zealots so one 923 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:46,819 has to be very careful to really step 924 00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:48,729 back and want to know the truth and 925 00:41:53,799 --> 00:41:51,049 that's what I think we all would like to 926 00:41:55,390 --> 00:41:53,809 know in this case if we really do step 927 00:41:57,549 --> 00:41:55,400 back one of the things that's troubling 928 00:42:02,019 --> 00:41:57,559 to me and you touched on it a minute ago 929 00:42:05,529 --> 00:42:02,029 is how overwhelming the evidence seems 930 00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:05,539 to be at this point we can confidently 931 00:42:10,689 --> 00:42:08,660 say that one near death experiences 932 00:42:12,959 --> 00:42:10,699 didn't just start happening in the last 933 00:42:15,309 --> 00:42:12,969 twenty years since we had advanced 934 00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:15,319 resuscitation techniques we can 935 00:42:20,019 --> 00:42:17,839 confidently say that four or five 936 00:42:22,449 --> 00:42:20,029 percent of everyone who has a cardiac 937 00:42:25,359 --> 00:42:22,459 arrest is having this there's obviously 938 00:42:27,279 --> 00:42:25,369 hundreds of millions of people over time 939 00:42:29,009 --> 00:42:27,289 we've had these accounts and we have 940 00:42:31,420 --> 00:42:29,019 thousands and thousands of 941 00:42:34,959 --> 00:42:31,430 well-documented consistent accounts 942 00:42:37,089 --> 00:42:34,969 across cultures across times these are 943 00:42:40,269 --> 00:42:37,099 the measures that we would normally use 944 00:42:42,670 --> 00:42:40,279 to say this is a real phenomenon and 945 00:42:44,890 --> 00:42:42,680 then when when the skeptics have been 946 00:42:47,499 --> 00:42:44,900 really the scientists the mainstream 947 00:42:49,749 --> 00:42:47,509 scientists have pounded against it for 948 00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:49,759 20 years with really what amounts to a 949 00:42:54,999 --> 00:42:52,160 bunch of kind of very silly explanations 950 00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:55,009 but ones that have been carefully looked 951 00:43:00,189 --> 00:42:57,890 at and dismissed you know was it co2 is 952 00:43:02,349 --> 00:43:00,199 it fear of death is it other 953 00:43:04,269 --> 00:43:02,359 psychological factors is it all the 954 00:43:07,509 --> 00:43:04,279 different things REM intrusion all these 955 00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:07,519 things that clearly that this would 956 00:43:11,829 --> 00:43:09,920 normally be something where we'd be 957 00:43:14,729 --> 00:43:11,839 putting a lot of attention into it or 958 00:43:16,539 --> 00:43:14,739 that it would then become the presumed 959 00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:16,549 explanation for it but 960 00:43:21,549 --> 00:43:18,529 none of that's happening that they have 961 00:43:24,449 --> 00:43:21,559 managed to kind of hold back the Dyke 962 00:43:27,489 --> 00:43:24,459 you know so so what do you make of that 963 00:43:28,769 --> 00:43:27,499 okay well I think you know when trying 964 00:43:34,059 --> 00:43:28,779 to get back to your original question 965 00:43:36,279 --> 00:43:34,069 with the the previous guests um to me 966 00:43:38,229 --> 00:43:36,289 one thing that has emerged from my 967 00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:38,239 experience and from very rigorous 968 00:43:42,729 --> 00:43:40,400 analysis of that experience over several 969 00:43:44,529 --> 00:43:42,739 years talking it over with with others 970 00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:44,539 that I respect in neuroscience and 971 00:43:50,469 --> 00:43:46,609 really trying to come up with an answer 972 00:43:55,630 --> 00:43:50,479 is that consciousness outside of the 973 00:43:58,120 --> 00:43:55,640 brain is a fact it's an established fact 974 00:44:02,079 --> 00:43:58,130 and of course you know that was a hard 975 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:02,089 place for me to to get coming from you 976 00:44:05,799 --> 00:44:03,650 know being card toting reductive 977 00:44:09,099 --> 00:44:05,809 materialist over decades it was very 978 00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:09,109 difficult to get to knowing that 979 00:44:14,890 --> 00:44:12,529 consciousness that are there's a soul of 980 00:44:19,859 --> 00:44:14,900 us that that is not dependent on the 981 00:44:22,179 --> 00:44:19,869 brain and as much as I I know all the 982 00:44:24,939 --> 00:44:22,189 reductive materialist arguments against 983 00:44:26,589 --> 00:44:24,949 that I think part of the problem is it's 984 00:44:28,359 --> 00:44:26,599 like the guy looking for his keys under 985 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:28,369 the streetlight and a reductive 986 00:44:33,039 --> 00:44:30,729 materialists are under the streetlight 987 00:44:35,679 --> 00:44:33,049 because that's where they can see things 988 00:44:38,019 --> 00:44:35,689 but in fact if your keys are lost out in 989 00:44:41,589 --> 00:44:38,029 the darkness of the techniques there are 990 00:44:43,929 --> 00:44:41,599 no good and it is only by letting go of 991 00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:43,939 that reductive materialism and opening 992 00:44:51,069 --> 00:44:45,920 up to what is a far more profound 993 00:44:53,529 --> 00:44:51,079 understanding of consciousness and this 994 00:44:57,069 --> 00:44:53,539 is where I think you know from me as a 995 00:44:58,959 --> 00:44:57,079 scientist I look at quantum mechanics 996 00:45:04,029 --> 00:44:58,969 and I go into this in great detail in my 997 00:45:05,919 --> 00:45:04,039 book um is is a huge part of kind of the 998 00:45:07,059 --> 00:45:05,929 smoking gun it shows us that there's 999 00:45:09,969 --> 00:45:07,069 something going on there about 1000 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:09,979 consciousness that that our primitive 1001 00:45:15,429 --> 00:45:13,249 models don't get and it's far more 1002 00:45:17,890 --> 00:45:15,439 profound than than I ever realized 1003 00:45:19,539 --> 00:45:17,900 before I mean that's where I'm coming 1004 00:45:23,759 --> 00:45:19,549 from because my experience showed me 1005 00:45:26,589 --> 00:45:23,769 very clearly of that incredibly powerful 1006 00:45:28,769 --> 00:45:26,599 consciousness far beyond what I'm 1007 00:45:30,490 --> 00:45:28,779 trapped in here in the earthly realm 1008 00:45:32,770 --> 00:45:30,500 begins to umber 1009 00:45:34,990 --> 00:45:32,780 as you get rid of that filtering 1010 00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:35,000 mechanism of the brain I mean it is 1011 00:45:40,780 --> 00:45:38,240 really astonishing and that is what we 1012 00:45:43,210 --> 00:45:40,790 need to explain and thousands or 1013 00:45:45,730 --> 00:45:43,220 millions of near-death experiencers have 1014 00:45:48,010 --> 00:45:45,740 talked about this not only that but of 1015 00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:48,020 course as you mentioned a few minutes 1016 00:45:53,050 --> 00:45:50,390 ago people don't even have to go to a 1017 00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:53,060 near-death situation there are plenty of 1018 00:46:01,089 --> 00:45:56,720 mystical experiences of that have 1019 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:01,099 occurred over millennia that are part of 1020 00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:02,810 the same mechanism and that's why all 1021 00:46:06,070 --> 00:46:04,880 this talk about oxygen tension co2 and 1022 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:06,080 all that you can pretty much throw out 1023 00:46:11,260 --> 00:46:08,930 the window because you really need to be 1024 00:46:13,690 --> 00:46:11,270 working towards explaining all of those 1025 00:46:17,290 --> 00:46:13,700 phenomena and part of the problem is 1026 00:46:21,070 --> 00:46:17,300 they're hard to explain but that is a 1027 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:21,080 clue that in fact that's where the who 1028 00:46:25,330 --> 00:46:23,810 was it that the Willy Loman through ever 1029 00:46:26,410 --> 00:46:25,340 they asked him why do you rob banks he 1030 00:46:29,230 --> 00:46:26,420 said because that's where the money is 1031 00:46:33,460 --> 00:46:29,240 well same kind of thing they're hard 1032 00:46:36,250 --> 00:46:33,470 issues and the whole understanding of 1033 00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:36,260 what consciousness really involves and I 1034 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:39,200 came a lot closer that in my coma 1035 00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:41,330 experience and coming out of it and in 1036 00:46:45,070 --> 00:46:43,609 doing all the very intense homework for 1037 00:46:48,609 --> 00:46:45,080 the three years since then to try and 1038 00:46:51,070 --> 00:46:48,619 understand it and that that it's a 1039 00:46:53,290 --> 00:46:51,080 difficult question because it's close to 1040 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:53,300 the real truth that we're going after 1041 00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:56,930 you know if it were easy oh you know it 1042 00:47:00,220 --> 00:46:58,640 would be widely available and it would 1043 00:47:01,890 --> 00:47:00,230 have already been written up by somebody 1044 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:01,900 who wanted to publish or perish and 1045 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:05,690 that's that's not not how it works it's 1046 00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:08,330 not that easy dr. Alexander a little bit 1047 00:47:14,130 --> 00:47:10,420 of time we have left what's it been like 1048 00:47:17,290 --> 00:47:14,140 being so public about your experience 1049 00:47:18,910 --> 00:47:17,300 well you know people many people have 1050 00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:18,920 come up to me and said wow this takes a 1051 00:47:24,790 --> 00:47:22,400 lot of courage to do this you know it 1052 00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:24,800 probably would have taken courage to 1053 00:47:29,740 --> 00:47:26,960 talk like this right after I came out of 1054 00:47:32,050 --> 00:47:29,750 it and I learn to put the lid on it but 1055 00:47:33,490 --> 00:47:32,060 then as I did more and more work and 1056 00:47:38,670 --> 00:47:33,500 talk with more people and started 1057 00:47:42,550 --> 00:47:38,680 realizing oh my gosh this is all real 1058 00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:42,560 then I can tell you takes no courage at 1059 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:44,250 all because it's simply 1060 00:47:52,580 --> 00:47:50,610 it is so powerful to know this and and I 1061 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:52,590 think and one thing I'm trying to do in 1062 00:47:57,770 --> 00:47:55,410 my book is to show why it's so logical 1063 00:47:59,990 --> 00:47:57,780 why this is a very rational way for 1064 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:00,000 things to work and especially when you 1065 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:03,690 really delve into the profound mystery 1066 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:06,210 of conscious existence and again I'd 1067 00:48:11,540 --> 00:48:09,570 recommend irreducible mind to any people 1068 00:48:14,330 --> 00:48:11,550 with a scientific bent who really want 1069 00:48:17,390 --> 00:48:14,340 to get into it go in there and and 1070 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:17,400 because the whole issue is far far 1071 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:20,450 deeper than we would like to think and 1072 00:48:25,850 --> 00:48:24,330 it's it's absolutely wonderful to to 1073 00:48:29,540 --> 00:48:25,860 realize this and I think it's going to 1074 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:29,550 change this world in wonderful ways but 1075 00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:32,250 a big part of it of course is to try and 1076 00:48:37,970 --> 00:48:35,310 broaden the boundaries of science and of 1077 00:48:42,370 --> 00:48:37,980 what we accept and will use to get 1078 00:48:45,830 --> 00:48:42,380 towards truth and I'm very hopeful that 1079 00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:45,840 science and spirituality will come 1080 00:48:50,420 --> 00:48:48,720 together hand in hand and go forward to 1081 00:48:53,330 --> 00:48:50,430 help with these the getting these 1082 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:53,340 answers and help people to understand 1083 00:48:58,840 --> 00:48:55,170 the true nature of our existence and a 1084 00:49:04,060 --> 00:48:58,850 side effect of course will be that 1085 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:04,070 humanity and kind of the Grace and 1086 00:49:11,210 --> 00:49:07,890 harmony that we will see around this 1087 00:49:13,150 --> 00:49:11,220 world will expand tremendously as we 1088 00:49:16,370 --> 00:49:13,160 move forward in that fashion 1089 00:49:18,980 --> 00:49:16,380 great it's certainly an amazing account 1090 00:49:22,130 --> 00:49:18,990 and you do a great job of bringing forth 1091 00:49:23,450 --> 00:49:22,140 this this information so we wish you the 1092 00:49:25,610 --> 00:49:23,460 best of luck with that and we'll 1093 00:49:27,890 --> 00:49:25,620 certainly look forward to your book 1094 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:27,900 coming out when probably next year maybe 1095 00:49:31,580 --> 00:49:29,850 something I certainly hope so I'm hoping 1096 00:49:35,210 --> 00:49:31,590 to finish it now and I do have a web 1097 00:49:36,830 --> 00:49:35,220 page which is life beyond death net for 1098 00:49:38,540 --> 00:49:36,840 any people who have an interest I'll 1099 00:49:40,700 --> 00:49:38,550 tell you I'm so busy on the book you can 1100 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:40,710 send me email sign up for the newsletter 1101 00:49:45,170 --> 00:49:43,290 whatever but I won't be responding for a 1102 00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:45,180 few months so if people are interested 1103 00:49:48,290 --> 00:49:46,800 they're welcome to get in touch sign up 1104 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:48,300 for the newsletter which won't be coming 1105 00:49:53,930 --> 00:49:50,610 out until I've done the book and then 1106 00:49:56,990 --> 00:49:53,940 we'll move move from there but it's just 1107 00:49:58,099 --> 00:49:57,000 a wonderful gift and I think people will 1108 00:50:00,559 --> 00:49:58,109 see that it actually 1109 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:00,569 makes more sense than anything else has 1110 00:50:07,849 --> 00:50:03,930 so far and that's why I think it's it's 1111 00:50:10,339 --> 00:50:07,859 it's of inestimable value to get this 1112 00:50:12,559 --> 00:50:10,349 out to the world great well thanks so 1113 00:50:16,489 --> 00:50:12,569 much for joining us today well thank you 1114 00:50:18,410 --> 00:50:16,499 very much I appreciate Alex thanks again 1115 00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,420 to dr. Alexander for joining me today on 1116 00:50:23,089 --> 00:50:20,400 skeptic oh and I certainly wish him 1117 00:50:25,220 --> 00:50:23,099 success with his book and I know he's 1118 00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:25,230 very hopeful that his book and his 1119 00:50:29,269 --> 00:50:27,569 experience will advance this topic 1120 00:50:31,309 --> 00:50:29,279 forward and help us come to a deeper 1121 00:50:34,940 --> 00:50:31,319 understanding of what's really going on 1122 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:34,950 with near-death experience but I don't 1123 00:50:38,479 --> 00:50:36,210 think it's going to happen 1124 00:50:40,759 --> 00:50:38,489 I think he's way too optimistic about 1125 00:50:42,589 --> 00:50:40,769 the amount of change that he's going to 1126 00:50:44,829 --> 00:50:42,599 be able to bring I think we're just too 1127 00:50:48,950 --> 00:50:44,839 deeply entrenched in our biological 1128 00:50:50,420 --> 00:50:48,960 robot mindset paradigm that we're in but 1129 00:50:52,339 --> 00:50:50,430 hey that's just my opinion and I 1130 00:50:54,140 --> 00:50:52,349 certainly hope that I'm wrong and I 1131 00:50:56,479 --> 00:50:54,150 certainly hope that you'll tell me if 1132 00:51:02,329 --> 00:50:56,489 you think I'm wrong either on The 1133 00:51:04,819 --> 00:51:02,339 Skeptical website at ske pti KO comm or 1134 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:04,829 in our forum which you'll also find from 1135 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:06,930 our website or by just dropping me an 1136 00:51:10,609 --> 00:51:08,970 e-mail or connecting with me on facebook 1137 00:51:12,739 --> 00:51:10,619 and also if you'd like more information 1138 00:51:15,099 --> 00:51:12,749 about this show please visit that 1139 00:51:17,870 --> 00:51:15,109 website we have over a hundred and fifty 1140 00:51:20,089 --> 00:51:17,880 previous shows in our library we invite 1141 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:20,099 you to check those out well that's going 1142 00:51:23,569 --> 00:51:23,249 to do it for today until next time take 1143 00:51:25,780 --> 00:51:23,579 care 1144 00:51:33,990 --> 00:51:25,790 bye for now